An Archive of FreethoughtBlogs Years

Woofin’ and Beefin’ 

I used to work with a young lady that described someone else’s belligerence as “woofin’ and beefin’.” I love that language. But I do want to avoid fights with others in the neighborhood. I’ve already had a pretty negative interaction with one other blogger on this network and decided to just drop out of that scene instead of pressing it. I made my feelings on the general topic clear here (my islamophobia post), but will not address that specific conversation or go back there again.

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Likewise, I have been affiliated with and linked to people who have had some rough interactions with another prominent skeptic blog site. I agree with their point of view completely, but I don’t want to say anything negative about specific other people in the progressive atheo-skepti-sphere, from my little corner. That is to say, if I have a problem that I feel compelled to address, I’ll do as before and avoid naming names and getting into specific exchanges. But I will post my feelings on the subject in general.

I hope that doesn’t seem too passive-aggressive or cowardly* to the people who need advocates the most. If it becomes a problem for any of you, let me know how you feel.

*Per a thoughtful suggestion, I might stop using this word on my blog. I’ll have to change the mouse-over text on the tab for the site if I do. Still thinking about it.

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Comments
 
1.  permanganater — March 21, 2016 at 10:02 pm

I think that’s pretty diplomatic. And you can’t be accused of ignoring the elephant in the room.

Once small gripe: If you would reconsider the use of the word ‘cowardly’, that would be appreciated. I’m pretty timid IRL (and can struggle to be forthright online) and too many times I’ve encountered ‘cowardly’ used as a smear against timid people like me. To that extent I consider it an ableist and silencing expression. YMMV, but I feel I have to be honest and raise it.

Loving the blog so far. Big Fan. Long may it continue.

 
2.  Great American Satan — March 22, 2016 at 12:00 am

Thanks for following, and that’s a good point. I know a lot of good people wouldn’t have the gumption to say anything to anyone anywhere. In fact, perma-lurking might be a sign of good character as often as it is a symptom of unfortunate self-esteem.

Now. Someone on WHtM suggested Antisocial Injustice Coward as a good term for the opposite number of Social Justice Warriors, and I’ve run with it so far. I’d like to have a good antonym for SJWs, but avoid ableism. I’ve considered “antisocial” itself might be ableist since it’s part of the name of a personality disorder.

Any thoughts on a good replacement?

 
3.  permanganater — March 22, 2016 at 2:20 am

I punched ‘coward’ into the thesaurus and was spoiled for choice – until I considered which words might be problemtic for others – and there was a surprising amount. This is actually quite hard when you try to do it right (and not just for yourself).

I’ll take this one as a question on notice and come back later with hopully a more constructive response/suggestion.

 
4.  Great American Satan — March 22, 2016 at 10:49 am

Maybe I’ll come up with something too.

One thing that’s annoying about conservatives is how much of their outlook is motivated by fear while they puff chests and pretend it isn’t. I’m tempted to call it cowardly when a homophobe threatens people with violence, things of that nature. Next time that temptation comes up I’ll put some more effort into this.

 
5.  Brony, Social Justice Cenobite — March 23, 2016 at 9:30 am

“I hope that doesn’t seem too passive-aggressive or cowardly* to the people who need advocates the most. If it becomes a problem for any of you, let me know how you feel.”

I don’t personally think that it is a problem. Passive support that speaks on issues and not personalities is support and not every person is cut out for confrontation. Even people like me that can do confrontation still need to have non-confrontational methods and I also take a break from being confrontational from time to time.

@permanganater
Would you be willing to expand on that with respect to how careless use of the word can be a problem? I find the word coward to be valuable, but I try to have standards for when it is appropriate to use it and every other insulting characterization in my arsenal. I try to only use it on people that are being confrontational, assertive or rude but are also avoiding something specific in an argument. There has to be some behavioral inconsistency present that makes the characterization relevant. Otherwise I try to avoid applying it to people who are not being assertive or who tend to be timid.

I like adding new contextual elements to how and when I get into conflicts and how they functionally work when I can.

 
6.  Great American Satan — March 23, 2016 at 12:44 pm

I’ll field that if permanganater isn’t feeling up to it, but I’ll wait a while to see if they want to say anything. On the topic in general, I’ll say we are free to have different standards about this. I’m still reserving the right to cuss a blue streak at jerks, but Caroline over here prefers not use name-calling at all, and I can see her point. Maybe I’ll even move in that direction ultimately, but I’m pretty far from that at the moment.

 
7.  permanganater — March 23, 2016 at 6:37 pm

GAS, thanks.

Brony @9.

My complaint is specific to ‘coward’. The etymology of the word is harmless enough but for me encountering it is reliably unpleasant. As I said above, I’m timid IRL, and I developed an aversion to ‘coward’ due to it being used a bludgeon on me when I’ve been faltering in my support, defence or advocacy of a position; and in that connection it is unquestionably ableist. I had a particularly aggressive boss at one point who repeatedly characterised my lack of forthrightness as cowardly.

I don’t seek to proscribe it’s use beyond my mild suggestion to GAS, and my acknowledgment others may have different views (‘YMMV’).

I don’t have any issue with stupid, ignoramus, dolt, or their synonyms, as in those cases usage has transcended their bight, but I don’t begrudge the right of others to object to their use.

My pet linguistic peeve is the tourettic (tourettic not ableist in this context) (2026 MOD EDIT: was it not ableist in this context? brony may have dipped for more than one reason...) use of ‘fucking’ as an adverb. Anyone who feels the compulsion to invoke the male penetrative act to complete the full force of their argument needs to take a long hard look at themselves, IMHO. My advice, however, is be careful where you suggest moderating it’s use; doing so can call down allegations of ‘tone []ing’ or the like.

(Full disclosure – I have used ‘coward’ and ‘fucking’ in the past but am trying to do better on both fronts).

 
8.  Great American Satan — March 23, 2016 at 6:44 pm
While we’re talking preferences, I’d lose “male” from the penetrative sex act, because anyone can penetrate one way or another, but more importantly because it can be seen as equating gender and genital configuration. Tho I agree fucking is mostly considered about penetrative sex, except in its most abstracted form, and some folks are bound to feel very uncomfortable around people using it for that reason. So it goes...

Taking the Ableism Challenge 

The excellent Ania Bula offered this challenge “for all of (her) blogger friends” – which I take to mean she isn’t expecting randos to participate. So calm thyselves if riled, randos. This isn’t for you. The challenge in short: Do not use any ableist language in your writing for one month. This is not a challenge I am personally accepting because I’m trying to do it forever rather than a short time, and because she doesn’t know me. I’m a rando.

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I mention and link it because it lays out the good case against ableism in writing – which in the atheist and skeptic communities is mostly synonyms for “unintelligent” and “mentally ill” being used as insults. A response article by the righteous and mighty Luxander Pickel (edit: blog deleted, sayonara comrade) is also well worth a read. Below are some choice chunks from both articles:

From Bula:

“The concerns of the disabled community are often pushed to the side or seen as less important… As one person famously put it: disability activism is not a real thing… For most people it was just not enough of a big deal... Every few months someone writes a post asking people to not use “crazy” as a pejorative, that gets summarily ignored...
 
And these things do matter. In the same way that racialized words perpetuate systemic racism, and the same way that racialized words can find themselves in the most seemingly benign words, ableism too is so prevalent as to be invisible.
 
The sad fact is that most ableist slurs are considered the soft swears, the use-instead-ofs. Want to insult someone in relatively polite company? Chances are you may reach for one of these as a stand-by. But words matter. Language shapes our perception and when we make disability an insult, when we make ability an insult, we are implying that there is something wrong with being that way. It adds to a system that treats people with disabilities as being less than human. In some cases people go so far as to imply that people with disabilities don’t have feelings or don’t feel pain. Moreover it creates a perceptions, a link between being disabled and being otherwise incompetent...
 
Cognitive ability is often an imprecise target of their criticism. Often what people mean when they insult cognitive ability is rather ignorance or a purposeful decision to ignore reality in favour of their own biases, an act undertaken as easily by highly intelligent individuals as by those who may suffer from cognitive impairments… Richard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, Ted Nugent, Stephen Harper, may all be reprehensible human beings with bigoted ideas and some serious cognitive biases, but cognitively impaired or lacking in intelligence, they are not.
 
The people hurt when you use ableist slurs are often not the targets of your insults, ...it is the people surrounding you who are influenced by the perception that you think cognitive ability is an indicator of worth. It doesn’t matter what your thoughts, or what you think your thoughts on the matter are, what matters is what others perceive your thoughts to be on the matter. If I can’t distinguish you from an ableist by your words, then you are being ableist. Even if you don’t mean to be.
 
This is a life and death matter. The cultural perception of my abilities directly impacts my ability to access care. The more people perpetuate this idea that disability equals incompetence, the harder it is to have doctors take me seriously when I say that something is wrong. The easier it is to excuse the horrible treatment of disabled children who are made to endure torturous treatments and have their bodily autonomy violated on a regular basis. The easier it is to ignore that 80% of people with disabilities will be sexually assaulted at some point in their lives. The easier it is to ignore that disabled children and even adults are murdered and abused by their caretakers.”

From Pickel:

“As atheists, we (myself included) sometimes hinge our worth as people on our intelligence. ‘How can religious people be so blind?’ is a common thought I’ve seen and had myself. ‘Christians are delusional,’ is another one I’ve seen far too often, and in fact have made more than one YouTube video attempting to debunk (edit: had included links, now broken).
 
Basically, as rationalists, we pride ourselves on our superior intelligence and sometimes make fun of people who fall prey to seemingly obvious fallacious thinking. We use terminology like ‘stupid, delusional, crazy,’ to describe our incredulous feelings as to how people could possibly think those things.
 
I’m here to say that there’s absolutely no reason to throw disabled people and people with mental illness under the bus when we’re expressing our incredulity at the ridiculous ideas which others put forth...
 
I think it’s important to introspect on why terms like ‘crazy’ and ‘delusional’ create such a visceral response in ourselves. It’s because there is a long-standing stigma against neurodivergence, and an all-too-common dehumanization of people who live with those afflictions. These terms create the same effect in our brain as cursing, at least in my experience.
 
‘This guy is a fucking lunatic,’ makes the fun brain chemicals involved with cursing, and separates us from them in such a way as we can view them as less than full human beings. How could anyone who is a rational human being possibly hold these views? Well, they may be irrational, but that’s no reason to create a categorical difference in our minds which essentially renders them subhuman.
 
In short, there are deep-seated reasons why it feels so satisfying to call someone crazy when they hold views which are radically different from our own. It’s easy, and vindicates us as being Right, while they are Wrong. But there are unintended side-effects, and an implication that people who actually are ‘crazy’ are so different that they might as well not be people.”

I have nothing to add. These are my thoughts exactly (expressed more eloquently), and I’m familiar with the circumstances that informed their conclusions. It’s the underpinning of my comment policy. If you catch me messing up, let me know. I know we aren’t going to get this overnight, but we can do it. Stop using ableist language, please. It matters.

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Comments
 
1.  silverfeather — March 20, 2016 at 8:07 pm

I happened to be lurking around on Skepchic when this issue came up and wow – there were some comments over there that really opened my mind. After challenging my initial knee jerk reaction (it was a bad one) I realized that the people talking about the harm of ableist language such as “stupid” were completely right. I absolutely love seeing this start to be discussed seriously in more places and find its way into more comment policies!

I still screw up the language sometimes, but I’m working on it. Thankfully, when typing I can choose my words even more carefully through the magic of proofreading and the backspace key!

 
2.  Great American Satan — March 20, 2016 at 10:43 pm
It’s definitely easier to manage doing blog posts and comments than it is in spoken language around the house. I think practicing out loud might be helpful though. I haven’t been great about it lately.
 
3.  LicoriceAllsort — March 21, 2016 at 1:13 pm
I don’t have a blog but decided to take up the challenge on FB and in spoken language. I agree that a good goal is to try to do it indefinitely, but I like the idea of being conscious about the effort for 4 weeks to try to establish new habits. I will say that I got drunk/riled up in a conversation over the weekend and failed miserably—intelligence slurs appear to be the area where I need the most work. Back on the wagon.
 
4.  Great American Satan — March 22, 2016 at 12:01 am
Thank you for your effort. :-)
 
5.  Caroline — March 22, 2016 at 12:02 pm

Hi Satan, I read a very interesting interview just yesterday on Democracy Now with the author of a new book. The book is called Imbeciles: The Supreme Court, American Eugenics, and the Sterilization of Carrie Buck. Adam Cohen is journalist and lawyer, previously member of The New York Times editorial board, former senior writer for Time magazine. He’s the co-editor of TheNationalBookReview.com. It was a very interesting article and I thought someone talking about ableism might want to read it. I have not taught myself to do links yet but I think it would be a good source.

Good luck with the new blog. I have enjoyed and learned from your comments in the past and am looking forward to more. Thanks for taking the challenge.

 
6.  Caroline — March 22, 2016 at 12:37 pm

I have also decided to just have a no name calling rule. Say what you mean and mean what you say the best you can. Clarify if asked or if you can think of a way to say it better, do so. I also try to think of why I feel what I feel and say that. “I am exasperated with you and think this conversation is futile, we have gone over all the points and I am through,” or “I am offended at what you wrote because you dehumanized me and/or this group” and etc. It takes more work and time but I find I learn a lot that way so it can be a worthwhile process.

I recently had to have a chat with myself about calling myself a baby for being a crier. I had to look at the category of people we call baby and see how I was not one. I am an adult who cries a lot. It happens.Humans cry. Babies are people who are between 0 and toddler. Sounds elementary I know......

 
7.  Great American Satan — March 22, 2016 at 8:12 pm
Thanks for the info, Caroline. I don’t think I’m ready to abandon name-calling, but I might in the future. :-)
 
8.  robertbaden — March 24, 2016 at 7:46 am
Is talking about medical conditions you have no clue about a related issue? I’m thinking of people who shame diabetics for drinking sugared sodas............
 
9.  Great American Satan — March 24, 2016 at 10:01 am
On my blog, never shame anyone for anything they consume, even if it’s heroin sprinkled glass shards, but especially if it’s food or beverages of any kind. I might edit out anything that looks like diet talk or negative stuff about people’s appearance, certainly blaming or shaming people for health problems. Still feeling things out.
 
10.  smrnda — March 25, 2016 at 9:19 am

As someone who has actually been delusional (I have schizo-affective disorder) the use of the term ‘delusional’ to describe people who are really just subject to the same cognitive biases as everyone in the population does tend to annoy me. It’s not just that the language targets me or, but by using a clinical term incorrectly misinformation about both mental illness and cognitive biases become even more pervasive. Being truly delusional isn’t something you can willingly snap out of, the way that with a degree of effort someone can examine their biases. And if the argument is ‘well, I’m not using the term clinically, but in an everyday usage’ – in that case, use a different word, if only for the sake of clarity.

Oddly enough, I don’t really react negatively to ‘crazy’ as it hasn’t been a clinical term in a very long time, but I do avoid using it myself.

 
11.  Great American Satan — March 25, 2016 at 10:40 pm
Thanks for commenting on your experience. It’s good for people to do that because it shows why thinking about ableism is important. You never know who has had what problems, and how they could be affected by sloppy insults.
 
12.  Luxander Pond — March 29, 2016 at 10:29 pm
Wow, color me flattered. =] I don’t think anyone’s ever called me “righteous and mighty” before. I’m in the same boat as you, I try not to make those remarks at all, so taking a challenge isn’t really much of a challenge for me. Good to see others on board!
 
13. Great American Satan — March 29, 2016 at 10:56 pm
:-) Thank you. I just realized I’m using the name u used on FtB and should I change Pickels to Ponds?

Levitate Me 

What Else Is There? – Röyksopp ft. Karin Dreijer

 
This is a repost from my writing elsewhere.

Trigger warnings? Things that could bother people: the dark mood, time lapse photography of mold (eww), depiction of dead ducks that may or may not have been real, images of buildings falling apart in stormy weather.

This spooky jam is sung by Karin, who is not the lip-syncing floaty model in the video, but rather the tight-lipped weirdo in the ruff collar. You probably know them from The Knife and Fever Ray. Music is by Röyksopp.

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I’m posting this because levitation. People sometimes experience a feeling of floating in altered mental states. Whether you’ve experienced that or not, there’s something about the feeling of it that resonates with a primal part of the mind. It shows up in a lot of art – song, visual depictions, writing. I found the use of it in The Lost Boys especially evocative.

I feel like the way an animal learns to move is by willing itself in the desired direction and flailing its body that way until muscle learning catches up to desire. In order to want to move the body at all, there has to be an inherent feeling in the mind that movement is possible, which exists before any knowledge of how to make movement happen. (As always, I could be very wrong.)

Essentially, we’re all natural born levitators. The only thing keeping us from being able to float towards our desires is physical constraints. That’s no small limitation – psychic levitation isn’t real or possible, as far as anyone knows. But the feeling is there. And maybe the limits of our bodies are the reason evoking that feeling can be so eerie, melancholy, or abstractly powerful.

And on an entirely different note,

Float On – The Floaters
 

This song is the equivalent of a video personal ad for the singers.

I challenge you to invent your own additional verse for the tune.

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Comments
 
1.  Great American Satan — March 21, 2016 at 1:02 am

No love for this post. I drop my own verse:

Cancer, and I’m Great American Satan
And I love anybody, but I’m cool with masturbatin’
So people, if you don’t wanna get with this dude
That’s coo, otherwise maybe you could
Mmmmmmm take my hand
Come with me baby to Love Land
Let me show you it’s not aggravatin’
Sharin’ your love with Satan!

 
2.  Great American Satan — June 20, 2022 at 2:14 am

i’m not identifyin as a dude at this point so maybe another draft

Cancer, and I’m Great American Satan
And I’m all about sex but not so much matin’
So if you wanna get busy but not reproduce
Perhaps you’d let me seduce yous
Mmmmmmm take my hand
Come with me baby to Love Land
I tell you baby, you will not be hatin’
Sharin’ your love with Satan!
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3.  Great American Satan — July 22, 2022 at 9:14 pm
Cancer, and my name is Chopped Meat
I like a man who ain’t just some geek off the street
A man who’s handy with the steel and can earn his keep
And boy, if you think this might be you
Hop in my gold caddy and we’ll ride on thru
Oooh mister, to love land
let me show you how sweet it can be
Sharing your love in my hooptie.
 
4.  Joe K — July 22, 2022 at 9:14 pm
Virgo, and my name is Joe.
And I like a guy who knows the name of all the characters in the 1982 John Carpenter movie the Thing
Fellas, if this sounds like u, there’s something u ought to do...
mmmMMMm take my hannd, come w/ me babey, to loveland
Let me show u, how good it can go, sharing ur love... with Joe
 
5.  Great American Satan — July 22, 2022 at 9:15 pm
Finally got one other person. Wooooo! I win!

Gotdam Windows 10 Rassle Frackle 

Our household recently got a new computer with Windows 10. I knew the moment I saw the technomagical commercials about it on TV that I would hate it. Calling programs “apps” now? Having some fake Siri on by default? This is a desktop machine, assholes. We don’t even have a mic plugged into it. But of course, that’s not the worst part.

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Restarting the computer to do updates with ZERO WARNING. And the updates taking ten times as long as in Win 7. We started this computer before noon and couldn’t use it for HOURS. Microsoft, I hate you so god damn much. I just hate Macs like 15% more, so keep up the good work. You just might drive me away yet.

If anyone wants to advocate for the libertarian penguin OS or otherwise platform war here, as long as your invective isn’t too ad hominem (against corporations and technology is OK), get into it. Sometimes people can learn something useful from those conversations, and it might be cathartic to gripe about the bastards who make our machines suck.

Also if anyone has a good set of bare minimum mods & setting changes to make Windows 10 cool, holla.

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Comments
 
1.  Some Old Programmer — March 19, 2016 at 1:39 pm

Hey GAS (is that an appropriate greeting? Please advise if not.) I feel your pain.

I was a long, content(ish) user of Windows XP. When the support plug was pulled, being a cheapskate, I went through the exercise of installing a dual boot with Ubuntu (14.04 LTS had just been released to much fanfare). I had a fair amount of pain doing so, primarily because I was using an older machine, and my video hardware was poorly supported.

Then my husband got me a new machine for my birthday (likely to reduce my swearing around the kids). I took a deep breath, shoved Windows 7 into a small partition (100Gb), installed Linux Mint and made Linux my primary boot. I’ve never looked back with any sort of fondness. There are definite drawbacks, and I would likely boot into Windows 7 if I played games outside of my Steam account, but there are real pleasures as well (e.g. no need to run an anti-virus package).

I won’t rattle on here (unless requested), but I will say that a lot of common applications have LInux versions or reasonable replacements.

 
2.  Great American Satan — March 19, 2016 at 2:43 pm
GAS is coo, probably better in all caps than lower case. Re: common applications, the most important to me would be an internet browser (of course), Photoshop, and maybe a 3d program like Blender? Anyhow, I tried that there GNU Image Manipulation Program with the ableist abbreviation on for a walk and did not like it. Anybody know of digital art programs that work with Linux?
 
3.  Baji-Naji — March 19, 2016 at 4:50 pm
 
4.  Great American Satan — March 19, 2016 at 4:58 pm
Thanks! Very worth reading. Ugh.
 
5.  Some Old Programmer — March 19, 2016 at 5:22 pm

The browser is easy–Firefox, Opera, Chromium and many others are available. If you’re test driving Linux Mint (which is easy to do), just select the “Software Manager” icon and you can search for packages and read the various reviews that have been submitted.

A photoshop replacement is tougher, as I’m only a casual user for image editing; GIMP does look to be the most popular. Mint is distributed with “ImageMagick”, but I didn’t like it at all.

I don’t use a 3d package.

One cool trick is that you can burn a Linux Mint image to either a DVD or a USB stick, boot from that and take it for a test drive without mucking up your existing Windows installation. I believe it’s also possible to install additional software onto a USB drive, but it’s been too long since I used this sort of sandboxing so I won’t swear to it. This page looks helpful for creating a bootable USB drive. This is the download page for Linux Mint.

A few notes. I recommend Mint for those that like the Windows XP style of desktop presentation and operation. Others will no doubt recommend other Linux distributions (there are many); I personally don’t care for Ubuntu’s desktop, but it is another distribution with a strong user base.

 
6.  Great American Satan — March 19, 2016 at 6:26 pm

Thanks for the extensive info. I’m not likely to do that myself soon (not very tech savvy, focused on other stuff atm), but might be someone else reading this goes for it.

 
7.  Steve Caldwell — March 19, 2016 at 9:52 pm

For the shared Windows 10 desktop computer in our house, my spouse’s work laptop, and my Dad’s computers, I installed the “Start10” replacement for the Windows 10 start menu after upgrading. This made the upgrade much easier for the family computer users that I support.

This provides you with a start menu that looks like the Windows 7 version ... it’s a very low-cost add-on from Stardock Software:

https://www.stardock.com/products/start10/

They make a similar product called “Start8” for Windows 8.

 
8.  silverfeather — March 19, 2016 at 11:07 pm

Oh no! I’m about to upgrade to Windows 10 this coming Wednesday. I’ve been running Windows Vista and I haaaate it – I was hoping 10 would be better. *sigh*

Now I’m sad.

 
9.  jcsscj — March 20, 2016 at 12:34 am

My wife should be better at responding to this because she is using her Kubuntu system for internet and her photos. Gor her photos she uses:

– Darktable
– Gwenview, which now also supports raw formats so sh eno longer need to convert her photos for browsing them.
– GIMP, her biggest problem with it is that it only supports a liumited number of colors (16 bits I think.
– Photoshop 7, which is gratis and I installed it a month ago. Didn’t hear her complaining yet, maybe she is not using it.
You can install Windows programs on Linux systems when you have installed WINE (WINdows Emulator). I remember it took me longer to install than expected, about 2 hours. There are pages and youtube videos that explain how to install the different photoshop versions on Linux.

 
10.  Great American Satan — March 20, 2016 at 1:53 am

More welcome information, thanks to all. silver @8- I get machines rarely enough I can skip versions and never had Vista. For me the jury’s out on which is worse or better. Might be once the dust settles and fixes are made (particularly 3rd party fixes), 10 isn’t too bad. It’s just a headache out of the box for at least some of us.

 
11.  left0ver1under — March 20, 2016 at 5:12 am

Automatic annoyances updates is only possible with an internet connection. Reportedly, “auto updates” can be turned off (and also reportedly, it still happens even after it’s turned off).

I still use 7 and likely won’t waste my money on 10. If I don’t switch permanently to linux, my long term solution will likely be having two computers. One with windows will be for documents and work but unconnected to the internet, and the other a linux machine solely for web browsing. And if having two is unsustainable, there’s always bootable linux on a flash drive.

 
12.  Steve Caldwell — March 20, 2016 at 6:59 am

If one is weighing the Windows 7 / Windows 8 vs Windows 10 decision, here are two factors to consider:

(1) Windows 7 will continue to receive security updates until 14 January 2020. Windows 8 will continue to receive security updates until 10 January 2023.

(2) The free Windows 10 upgrades will be available until 29 July 2016.

So ... if you’re planning on using a Windows 7 computer after January 2020 or a Windows 8 computer after January 2023 and want Windows security updates, the free upgrade to Windows 10 makes sense.

If you’re planning on getting rid of your Windows 7 computer before January 2020 or getting rid of your Windows 8 computer before January 2023 and you’re OK with your current version of Windows, there may be no reason to upgrade.

For what it’s worth, I’ve done 4 Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 upgrades and all have upgraded with minimal fuss (my dad’s desktop and laptop computers, spouse’s work laptop computer, household shared desktop computer).

With a free or low-cost app that give one back the Windows 7 start menu (e.g. Start10 or Classic Shell), the change to Windows 10 from WIndows 7/8 isn’t that drastic. And if you don’t want to bother with Windows 10 and don’t require Windows for software compatibility reasons, there are plenty of excellent Linux distros you can replace Windows on your PC (I’ve been using Ubuntu since 2007 — it’s a solid and user-friendly distro).

 
13.  Marcus Ranum — March 20, 2016 at 8:41 am

Windows 10 is microsoft’s idea of how to solve system administration. As usual, Microsoft appears to have assigned this problem to an intern with no experience.

I’ve been a professional IT type since 1984 and have seen systems come and go. What a lot of people don’t seem to realize is that Microsoft could suddenly dwindle to a nub and get absorbed into a software graveyard like Oracle. Cloud computing and BYOD can both be seen as corporate response to the cost of desktop system administration. Cloud and BYOD are trumesque protest votes but they are still protest votes.

 
14.  lorn — March 20, 2016 at 10:49 am

Some Old Programmer @ #1 Nailed it.

Linux, stable, efficiently uses resources, not burdened by reams of useless crap, controllable, open source, internally consistent, free. There are a lot of good distributions but Mint, base on Ubuntu, makes it easy to try it and, if you like it, transition. There is a learning curve but also a lot of sources of advice and support.

Linux, with an extensive list of legacy drivers and efficient use of limited memory, is great for breathing life into older PCs. A machine that can’t run Windows 8 or 10 might still be a sweet browser and e-mail machine. It won’t be running the latest video games but it can still do real work and fills the need for a whole lot of younger and older users.

 
15.  silverfeather — March 20, 2016 at 7:27 pm

Great American Satan @10
Thank you for the kind words! I will hold out hope that it cannot possibly be any worse...

 
16.  wereatheist — March 20, 2016 at 9:01 pm

“and maybe a 3d program like Blender?”

‘like Blender’ is, indeed, Blender on Linux based systems. As long as the graphics hardware is well supported, this should work.

 
17.  Great American Satan — March 20, 2016 at 10:47 pm
This is great. Lots of useful information in one place, all I have to do is hit up my blog for it. Gracias y’all.
 
18.  CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain — March 20, 2016 at 11:17 pm

Seconding Classic Shell to reimplement any of the older start menu styles. It’s free.

I had to do a bunch of specific Win10 tweaks manually, of course. Like removing the built-in apps that refuse to uninstall normally. (I didn’t use that particular guide at the time, but it looks better.)

Out of fastidiousness, you may want to create a local administrator account. Win10 really wants you on their cloud, depending on an internet connection and Windows Live just to log in. (and depending on them if you ever need to reset your password, boot disks only reset local accounts)

Anecdote: Someone once had me fix their laptop when their kid changed the password and forgot it, and the email microsoft would’ve sent the new password to was forgotten. My internet was seriously intermittent that weekend, which was lovely. After some extreme measures, I managed, but I had to abandon their live account. IIRC... Knoppix disk to replace an accessibility exe with a copy of cmd.exe, so I’d get an admin prompt at the login screen. Create a new local account. Take ownership and move all the files from one account to the other.

 
19.  CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain — March 21, 2016 at 2:57 pm
* After sleeping on it, I realized my anecdote involved Win8. *shudder*
 
20.  Great American Satan — March 22, 2016 at 12:02 am
Aww. Sorry about that. Thanks for your information just the same.
 
21.  F [i'm not here, i'm gone] — March 22, 2016 at 2:56 pm

Most graphics programs that run on unix-like systems are also built for Windows. So, you can try any of them, like Gimp (it’s what you are used to — i don’t like PShop :) )or Inkscape (vector graphics). Something “like Blender” would be… Blender. There are lots of others, if you just do a search for open source graphics programs, you’ll probably find tools or suites to do what you like in a manner that is comfortable and familiar for you.

As for Win10, this helps
https://www.downloadcrew.com/article/33968-win10_spy_disabler
but i haven’t done a lot of other research into keeping them out once you have the system the way you want it. I know a few that stripped out tons of stuff and ended up with a giant update like you, that put everything right back, all the extra dreck and the app store.

There is also this
https://www.classicshell.net/

 
22.  MattP (must mock his crappy brain) — March 24, 2016 at 9:23 am

Have been almost exclusively ubuntu flavored on my personal machines since ~2007; started with plain ubuntu+gnome then really liked fluxbox but eventually settled on Xfce. I’ve been using Xubuntu 12.04 since it was released and will upgrade to 16.04 when it gets released next month. VLC for media, firefox for internet, and nautilus for file browser. Have Wine installed for occasional nostalgia gaming trip and for netflix.

Last week I upgraded parent’s ~2009 Dell to Win10 from the much loathed Vista via Win8 install on a second hdd. Hard to believe there was something worse than Vista, but Win8 sure managed that. Disabled all the cloud/sharing crap during install and created only a local account, so not quite as much to worry about privacy-wise and I just ignore all the apps. Shortly thereafter I broke down and installed Win10 on an SSD in one of my machines because my netbook came with Win7 Home (that was immediately erased, but still had valid product key sticker) and have not found any CAD/CAM programs on linux that live up to expectations. Have not been using it long enough to know how bad it might be (only use it when necessary for CAD/CAM), but at least it is not lagging as much as Vista was and not as terrible as Win8.

 
23.  Great American Satan — March 25, 2016 at 10:44 pm
F @21 – thanks for the warning about updates. MattP @22 – Sounds like for my purposes Blender will work fine if I switch.
 
24.  lanir — March 26, 2016 at 10:05 am

I’ve been using Linux a very long time. A lot of the info above is useful. For non-technical users if you want Adobe Photoshop on Linux, yes you can use the WINE project. But you can also use Crossover from codeweavers.com if you prefer more polish. No videos required, installation would just require typing “Photoshop” into a search bar and selecting the version. From there it’s essentially just pointing it at the Photoshop installer (the thing you’d use to install it on windows), using default values and agreeing to licenses as it otherwise automates downloading and installing dependencies.

Crossover costs money (after a free trial period) but you’re paying for convenience and last I knew they were the biggest contributors to the WINE open source project, which powers Crossover.

Satan Says: Islamophobia is Real 

this is reposted & slightly edited from a previous iteration of this blog

Trigger Warnings – child sexual abuse, racism, islamophobia, anti-semitism, ableism

Deep Rifts 2.0 is about the division between regressive and progressive sides of the atheist and skeptic communities. Before this rift, one notion popular in atheist communities was that we were the free thinkers who arrived at our beliefs by reason and observation, while our opponents – the theists – believed what they were told like mindless obedient dogmabots. It’s a nice idea for atheists – in a society that despises us, we get to feel superior to the mainstream in some respect. Since the rift though, some of us have used this against our atheist opposites. What sense does that make? Where is this dogma codified? Who is walking in lockstep, refusing to question our dear leaders? This casts a lot of doubt on the original premise as used against theists, which is a loss for all of us. (Edit: I now know it’s ableist to think oneself superior on the metric of intelligence, so at this point I’m not feeling that loss so much.)

Read More

I’m not going to mirror my atheist opposites’ mistakes and claim they are a monolith, even though their beliefs line up better with the unjust status quo of the USA. I’m just going to keep poking holes in this ridiculous meme. The progressive side of the divide is not a monolith. We have our disagreements, and these are not small ones. Some of us continue to work with or promote people like Richard Dawkins (less so now that when this originally posted), some have joined in the masses ridiculing his ignorance and his strange grudge against Rebecca Watson. Some of us want to find common cause with theists to promote the secularism that can protect us all, some want to keep eviscerating the foundations of faith at the expense of potential allies. Some of us don’t have a decided stance on one more of these essential issues, and some people who generally come down on the progressive side are professional fence riders. All of this can be found within one blog network – Freethoughtblogs – if you look long enough. On the common cause vs. evisceration issue, you can find discord even within the A+ forums (now dead), and I am personally riding that fence at the moment.

One of these important areas of dispute – and the topic of this post – is the legitimacy of the term “islamophobia.” On one side, there are people like Taslima Nasreen and Maryam Namazie, who have personally experienced the hardship of cultures dominated by political islam and the capitulation of European liberals to islamist demands, and on the other side are people like Ed Brayton who have seen the climate of fear and violence muslims have to live with in the USA. (Articles against the use of the term here and here, in favor here and here.) And I’m certain there are others who are undecided about this issue. I can understand the confusion and difficulty in deciding how to respond to this, but I have a position, and unsurprisingly it is the same as the other white guy I mentioned. But allow me to both qualify and justify that...

I have been told that I should not, as a privileged party, criticize the political stances taken by the oppressed. If that is true and those stances are wrong, it would be best for the oppressed person to be criticized by someone in their own situation. This is, I think, a good ideal, even if it is not always possible in practice. To that end, I want to make clear that Maryam and Taslima are in a far better position to judge the religion whose defenders have directly oppressed them, to judge the situation in their parts of the world (a sad turn of phrase for Taslima, sorry) than I am. They may be right regarding the use of “islamophobia” in Europe by agents of theocracy and their fake progressive political allies, and I will not claim that what follows is applicable outside of my (stolen) part of the world.

But they cannot know the truth of my culture as well as I or Ed Brayton can. Personally, I know islamophobia is real because I am a motherfucking islamophobe. You can’t read my mind to tell me that I am not. I am as islamophobic as I am racist – that is to say, I do not want to be either of those things, but implicit bias is working against that intention.

What do I mean by islamophobia here and how can I tell it is distinct from racism? Islamophobia is a prejudice against muslims based not on race, but on their faith & culture. Certainly most islamophobes are also racist, but not all. I can suss out the truth in my own feelings – my unintended racist feelings are mainly against black folks. Those feelings are not stirred by middle eastern people, but a different and interesting feeling is. I will feel a sense of relief if such a person says they are not a muslim. Why is that?

In my feelings – in my biases – I regard islam as different from and worse than other religions, as a faith that makes its adherents dangerous or threatening. Maryam and others will argue that this is true – islam is, to them, worse than other religions. But if you ask an atheist, a feminist, a queer person from the rural parts of the USA how they feel about christianity, you will get the exact same response. It would be false to say that anywhere in the USA is quite as bad as the worst areas of the world’s islamist theocracies, but an FLDS compound can be as hot for baby raping as the Ayatollah – to go with a more extreme example. All around us in the USA are profound examples of how fundamentalist christians seek the same goals as islamists and – not content to oppress people in their homeland – influence governments from Africa to Russia to push the same antihuman agenda. Everything islamists are doing now has been done by christians,

And conversely, every position held by moderate or progressive christians is held by some moderate or progressive muslims. I’ve personally spoken with muslims who were in favor of gay and trans rights and unequivocally condemned murder and terrorism. The abrahamic holy books all equally advocate brutal misogyny, genocide, and more. The way they are “interpreted” (selectively ignored or enforced) are down to personal taste and culture in the same way. So where is the evidence that islam is uniquely harmful? It comes down to nothing but numbers. There is almost certainly a greater proportion of muslim theocrats and terrorists than christians, but you cannot extricate that from world history without a lot of handwaving. If Rome was sunni and Riyadh lutheran, you have to admit this proportion would be neatly upended. As it stands, you can get your head cut off or your family murdered by fundamentalists of any faith, so what is gained by singling out one religion for special criticism?

I can tell you exactly what is gained by singling out Islam in America. In my home and my culture, muslims really are victims of persecution. If I add to that while decrying the persecution of atheists, I become a colossal hypocrite. Some will say that islamophobia is not real, and that attacks on those perceived as muslim are motivated purely by racism. To that I reiterate my point above – I know that my emotional bias is against muslims and not brown people, because I am unreservedly fond of Middle Eastern and Indian atheists and skeptics. But there’s another obvious counterpoint someone just mentioned to me: Islamophobia is extremely similar to anti-semitism.

Both islamophobia and anti-semitism have a strong racial component. Islamophobes and anti-semites will often – but not always – have a notion of what a muslim or jew looks like, and treat the perceived enemy worse. However in both of these cases, if someone previously perceived as “safe” is revealed to be the “enemy,” they will also receive this scorn – for example, a small nosed blonde person with straight hair being discovered as jewish, or an African American or white person one was assuming to be christian revealing they are a muslim.

Also, islamophobes and anti-semites both have strange and false ideas about what muslims and jews actually believe. There can be a basis in fact for some of these misapprehensions (some terrorists are motivated by the weird virgin promise which actually does appear in islamic texts) but the islamophobe will be quick to exaggerate, distort, or over-apply the idea (“Every single muslim thinks that if they kill an american they’ll get a hunnerd five year olds to rape in heaven! Sez right in that koe-ran, I tell ya whut!”). Due to historical factors jewish people are disproportionately found among the very wealthy, but that quickly turns into, “No jew ever had to die in ‘Nam!” and so on.

Anti-semitism has a more deeply rooted and insidious history than islamophobia in the west, but islamophobia has been there since the Dark Ages, waiting for a properly motivated propaganda tool like Fox News to come into its own. It’s in America now and it is real here. Denying that empowers bad people, the same as ignoring any other axis of oppression.

That’s my take on things, and I could be wrong. Also, the judaeo-christo-islamic god is a big sack of shit, and abdicating your moral agency to its supposed dictates is foolish and evil. Make of that what you will.

-

Comments
 
1.  Surly Misanthrope — March 18, 2016 at 10:49 pm

I’m still very new to investigating and discussing social justice themes and admittedly tentative about exposing myself to it (not good at digesting the human bile that inevitably finds its way into those conversations), so I’m probably going to ask a lot of newbie questions. Hopefully folks can have patience with me, but of course feel free to call me out when I say or do something ignorant.

Something I’ve been trying to figure out is how does one not develop animosity towards a culture that is not their own after experiencing it extensively and witnessing nearly universal cultural elements that are ignorant, unwise (was going to type foolish but haven’t decided if that word is okay), and lead directly and extremely frequently to horrible evil or just avoidable tragedy? This isn’t a tool I was raised with and I haven’t developed it on my own yet.

I can tell myself, believe, and understand it to be factually correct, that “not all of them” are like this, but it doesn’t change my perception of more than a handful of individuals that I know well. My default assumption of people from this specific culture are extremely unfavorable. Admittedly, my default assumption of people from my own culture is also extremely unfavorable, but that’s covered in my name. My default assumption of people from my own species is also extremely unfavorable. But some types of unfavorable are even less charitable and that is what I am referring to.

I did learn growing up (somehow) that prejudging people based on most any criterion is almost always wrong and harmful to all involved. But that lesson is easier to apply when judging observed prejudices, not so much for overriding new ones formed by that overly simple pattern recognition part of the brain that allowed hominids to survive and thrive in a very dangerous world.

Since it is evil and harm that have generated a great deal of this animosity (though admittedly a lot is also just extreme frustration), this probably ties in to a larger discussion that I’m new to as well. I think most advocates for the mentally ill would still say that mental illness isn’t a blanket excuse for being an asshole. To what extent can a person excuse their evil or evil-by-proxy or evil-by-ignorance to the culture they were raised in or the cultures that “influenced” theirs through colonialism? When specific elements of a culture, religion, ideology, whatever are harmful to innocent people, where does a person go with that?

I put “influence” in quotes there because I know that’s not a realistic verb to describe cultural colonialism, I just didn’t have a better one off the top of my head.

 
2.  Great American Satan — March 19, 2016 at 2:03 am

I wrote this some time ago. Just thought it was relevant to staking out my position on this blog network – so people who disagree can shuffle on down the road & people who agree can come around as they like. At the moment, I’m not as able to be thoughtful about the subject as when I wrote it. Look at all my text up there. Where did it come from? Makes me want to take a nap.

In order for another commenter to give you some advice, it’d help if you can try and reduce your word count / boil down the essence. You might be more vague than you need to be & that’s adding confusion. Clarify your situation a bit more? That’s all I have at the moment.

 
3.  Surly Misanthrope — March 19, 2016 at 8:53 am

I can’t even write it out the specifics without groaning about my perceived (probable actual) racism.

I guess my question is, how does one not develop racist ideas or animosity when one’s overwhelming experience (over more than a 12 month period) within a given culture is witnessing atrocities and a systemic dismantling of critical thinking and empathy in the education system? Sure, a lot of it is religious in origin, but a lot of it is uncritical acceptance of really bad ideas that harm people on a very large scale.

 
4.  Great American Satan — March 19, 2016 at 1:00 pm

I’d say there really isn’t a way to avoid racist ideas and other prejudices forming. The focus has to be on knowing why they’re wrong and making sure they don’t influence how you treat other people. Imagine someone from France getting used to Kansas. France is full of crappy racism and sexism of its own, but from their PoV, our “heartland” would be appalling on those counts.

There’s no utopia, everyone in the world has work to do, and just because the culture you’re having a problem with has more work to do than your own, doesn’t mean there aren’t people trying to do it – even on this blog network. <-You will probably find that blog too depressing to read, but it should help you to know it exists, I think. It's also a good opportunity for perspective on how much worse *you* could be, if you were raised somewhere or somewhen else. Think about that and just try to be good. I don't know if that helps or if I said some screwed up stuff in trying to put these thoughts together, but it's what I have for ya.

 
5.  Surly Misanthrope — March 19, 2016 at 1:45 pm

I see all of those stories Arun shared trending on FB or referenced in a local feminist FB group I follow anyway. I think his additional perspective will add depth. With stories like that there isn’t a lot of room for them to get any darker or more depressing.

Perhaps the depressing part is that I haven’t been shocked by anything I’ve heard about in a very long time. It all seems par for the course with Homo sapiens. As bad as it gets, I just shrug and think “I’m sure this isn’t the first or the last time this will happen”.

 
6.  Great American Satan — March 18, 2016 at 1:53 pm
Y’know for some people it’s a good idea to unplug from the news, for however long that takes. If you need to put new stuff in your brain and can’t think of anything other than news, try looking through this tumblr of cute animals, memes, and nothing upsetting.

Comment Policy 

art by me
Cartoon image of a nerdy non-muscular version of Blake’s Red Dragon, holding a giant gavel.
 

If I catch a whiff that you are affiliated with the internet’s sundry hate mobs – goobergate, tha swinepit, men’s gripes activists, whatever – I’m blocking you. You have plenty of places to talk shit about us, you don’t get to do it here. Actually, if you’re conservative at all, I just really don’t need to hear your opinion about fucking anything. The difference between social conservatives and fiscal conservatives is whether they want to kill the gays or kill the poor, so even if we’re in agreement about the subject at hand? Not interested. I’d rather have no comments at all than a conservative anywhere near me.

Read More

Seriously, I’m annoyed enough that the average jackass I’m sitting next to on the bus is one change of conversation away from saying something racist, misogynistic, or transphobic, I don’t need it here. I’m treating this blog like I treat my house. If you aren’t family or progressive, you’re not welcome. Other people on FtB and even The Orbit might be more accommodating, in the spirit of debate or whatever.

I am open to criticism. I realize I am not the best or most thoughtful writer around here. But that criticism has to be from a progressive position or it isn’t worth my time, because regressives are wrong about fucking EVERYTHING, except whatever crumbs they snatch from the nice people table. There are other places for you to go. Find them. And talk shit about me from sunrise to sunset there if you want to. Follow your joy.

I don’t have a specific policy about ableism yet. I know even for proper lefties that is a hard thing to shake out of your language, so I’ll tolerate a slip up or two. If you’re using “stupid,” “insane,” or any synonyms thereof, please don’t. I might have to block you. At this point I’m allowing intent to count for something despite its lack of magic, but I might have to get more strict. We’ll see.

Lastly, as much as this may seem at odds with the fire I just spit, I’d like things to be less punchy here in the comments than on Pharyngula. If you’ve got something negative to say about someone who is present / commenting, try to make it about their ideas rather than the individual. Example: “I disagree with what you said” rather than “You are crap / fake / whatever.” If it’s about someone who is not present, less of a problem.

I just don’t want people having a personal row here. For my part, I’m trying to be less ragey here than I have been. Blocking fuckos is a first step towards that serenity.

EDIT TO ADD:
I’m turning off nested comments. I just realized how much of a mess they can become. If you want to respond to a specific comment, at the top mention the user name and post number. Do include both because if someone’s comments need to be deleted, what you mean may become misinterpreted.

EDIT AGAIN:
I did receive one comment on this article that seemed likely to be trollfoolery, but wasn’t completely clear. It’ll hang in moderation unless the person in question decides to follow up in some way. –They did and it’s approved. Leaving this note here to explain how I’ll handle similar situations if I see them.

-

Comments
 
1.  dianne — March 18, 2016 at 6:18 am
I agree with the principle and, yes, there is a “but” coming. Specifically, but I have never figured out how to describe an act that is severely regrettable and which the person committing the act should have known better than to do without resorting to words like “stupid”. Do you have suggestions on how to complete, say, the following sentence: “I voted for Trump in Reno, just to watch him lie. I now regret that decision and think I was being...” All the ways I can think of to end the sentence end up being slurs of some sort and I’d really like to get myself out of that habit, to say nothing of wanting to avoid getting banned here.
 
2.  Surly Misanthrope — March 18, 2016 at 6:31 am

Fool? I don’t agree with all of the connotative judgments here, but it might give you an idea where to start thinking.

apersnicketylemondottumblrdotcom/post/78877759531/hi-i-know-stpid-and-idit-are-ableist-but-i-was

 
3.  Tabby Lavalamp — March 18, 2016 at 7:26 am

“I now regret that decision and think I was being...”

A blockhead.

A nincompoop.

A ninny.

 
4.  sonofrojblake — March 18, 2016 at 8:09 am

As an engineer, if I’m required to police my language I tend to use “suboptimal”. For example:

“Hmm. Your understanding of this subject is… suboptimal.” They hear “Your understanding is just short of perfect.” Informed spectators (e.g. other engineers) hear something rather different, and may inhale sharply over their teeth. Nobody is offended, even one person should be.

 
5.  dianne — March 18, 2016 at 10:40 am
Erm...I’m pretty sure ninny has gendered implications and I have a vague idea that nincompoop’s origins are ableist. Or am I wrong? I don’t have anything on blockhead. What about ”I regret voting for Trump. It was a sushi for brains decision”? Or What a bitbrain thing to do”?
 
6.  left0ver1under — March 18, 2016 at 10:45 am

Abhorrent. Reprehensible. Inept. Ignorant. Deluded. Misanthropic. Incompetent. Repugnant. Facile. Decrepit. Self-flaggelating. Base. Vile. Nihilistic. Disaffected. Corposant.

Oh, wait, that last one doesn’t work....

 
7.  Surly Misanthrope — March 18, 2016 at 11:10 am
I should clarify, I’m not saying you should think a certain way, but that the article might give you some ideas on how to approach finding that alternate phrase you are looking for.
 
8.  Mary Jane Rauhtencrauch — March 18, 2016 at 11:33 am

Hi!
My friend Rick C. Was curious about one aspect of your comment policy. He would ask himself, but his internet got shut off, he is crashing on my couch, and I’m on the only computer in the house with internet.

So you allow honest and frank discussions of sexuality and polyamory in your comment section? This would include honest discussions of girlfriends, sex acts, and fetishes. There may also b be discussions of ETHICAL ways to meet new lover’s in the bars at conferences. Keep in mind. All of Rick’s comments come from the perspective of a feminist, ethically polyamorous, humanist, atheist, philosopher.

The reason we are asking this is because there were issues with a prior FTB blogger about this (that blogger has since left after being called out on her transphobia). Rick and I don’t want to cause any issues or offense again.

We look forward to reading and commenting here if you are ok with that,

 
9.  Garner Ellerbee — March 18, 2016 at 11:39 am

@Yabby, comment #2

As a disabled person with severe Crohn’s disease that periodically loses all bowel control, I find “nincompoop” to be extremely hurtful, offensive, and ableist. Please do not use that term. It is not “better”.

 
10.  anat — March 18, 2016 at 12:02 pm
Thoughtless? Dangerously wrong? Not in my right (ahem) mind?
 
11.  Great American Satan — March 18, 2016 at 1:06 pm

dianne @1 – Surly’s comment @2 links to a post that has some thoughts on the matter which could be a good starting place. Also see this internet famous article on the subject. Like I said, I’m not expecting perfection, but if I’m getting too many slip ups, I’ll have to revisit the issue.

Tabby @3 – Take note of Garner @9, dianne@5. Dianne, in a cursory google search I couldn’t find anything about the gendered aspect of ninny, but it feels true? For everyone it’s good to think about what you’re trying to say and any connotations of words that feel true, but aren’t necessarily in the dictionary.

dianne @5 – Maybe you should start from this sentiment in the first sentence at Surly’s link:

“It is inherently ableist to attack a persons intelligence.”

This is true in self-deprecation like your examples. Calling yourself stupid causes splash damage because it’s reinforcing the idea that a lack of intelligence is bad.

Think about people who have always been insulted for being less intelligent and how you would not want to hurt them, and it will help you make those decisions.

leftover @6 – Deluded might work but delusional gets close to describing a symptom of mental disability, decrepit would actually go into physical ableism and possible ageism. I’m pretty nihilistic but I’m OK with someone using that word if it fits.

Mary Jane @7 – I doubt those subjects will come up much here, so you’ll probably be fine. Regarding your name, that’s the second time I’ve seen a Full Metal Jacket reference in my comment sections already. Wacky.

anat@10 – Thoughtless can be questionable but probably depends on how you use it. Right now I’m neutral to it. The second one is great, the last one as a phrase is another synonym for “insane” so it doesn’t work.

To all, I know this can be tricky. Like I said, not expecting things to be perfect. I’d just like to have fewer problems with this than some other comment sections in the atheo-skepti-sphere if I can manage it.

 
12.  CJ Parker — March 18, 2016 at 1:15 pm
“Thoughtless” is definitely one that should be avoided. Extremely dehumanizing to the comatose/brain dead. The Terry Schiavos of the world already have their humanity taken away by awful conservative theocrats in govermrnt who strip them of their personal autonpmy. We really should be avoiding language that reinforces these awful injustices.
 
13.  dianne — March 18, 2016 at 1:35 pm

GAS@11: I have never heard any male gendered person called a “ninny”. Possibly there is some local variation in how the term is used?

I think I get your point about implying intelligent=good, but I’m looking for something that implies “I (or you or Sam Harris or whoever) made a really bad decision or showed really bad judgement in this thing, what was I (you/Sam Harris/etc) thinking?” without being that wordy. It’s not about intelligence (i.e. ability to intake and synthesize information) really since intelligence versus judgement is pretty much a scatter plot, but it is an issue of...wisdom? That’s not quite right but maybe it’s useful for furthering the discussion?

Then there’s the whole issue of whether and how to try to “reclaim” certain words or concepts. Because sometimes it is necessary to use negative terms to describe one’s own experiences with various mental illness. (And that sentence sure was in passive voice, wasn’t it?) Maybe that’s beyond the scope of this post anyway.

 
14.  Tabby Lavalamp — March 18, 2016 at 1:37 pm

Great American Satan @11, sorry, but I’m not entirely sure that Garner @9 is serious. I try very hard not to be ableist and tend to have no patience with people who try to defend their use of ableist words, but “nincompoop” has nothing to do with bowel movements. It has about as much to do with feces as “niggardly” has to do with racism. The wording in their comments shouts “troll” to me, because having “poop” as part of a word is the sort of thing a troll would use to make a comment about “losing all bowel control”.

Then there is the only other comment by Garner Ellerbee I can find on the blog network – freethoughtblogsdotcom/carrier/archives/9429#comment-1058682

The only argument I can see against the word is from its Latin origin – non compos mentis (“not of sound mind”), but it’s archaic enough that I don’t know how much of a history is has of being used against people with mental illness.

 
15.  dianne — March 18, 2016 at 1:41 pm
So is the basic problem here determining how to insult without doing splash damage?
 
16.  Surly Misanthrope — March 18, 2016 at 1:44 pm

Dianne @12

1. I /think/ fool works for this context. As I think of it, foolishness is the opposite of wisdom. Maybe.

2. I grew up on the west coast of the US in large metropolitan areas. I don’t recall specifically hearing “ninny” being attributed to a male-gendered individual, but I’ve also never perceived a gendered connotation (any which way) with it either.

3. “Taking it back” just feels impossible.

 
17.  dianne — March 18, 2016 at 1:47 pm
Surly @15: If an insult is used exclusively for one gender then it’s a gendered insult, whatever its meaning or original connotation.
 
18.  Surly Misanthrope — March 18, 2016 at 1:52 pm

Dianne @16.

That’s my poorly worded point. If I had heard it used exclusively for one gender, I would have presumably developed that perception of its ... um ... gendering(?).

I don’t have a specific memory of it being applied to a man, but I’m left with the impression that I probably did and on more than one occasion, as that is the only way to explain my perception of the word as non-gendered.

 
19.  Great American Satan — March 18, 2016 at 2:22 pm

dianne @12- I don’t have time to put a lot of thought into that at the moment, but it sounds like you’re thinking is on the right track and you can probably come up with something if you stick with it. And maybe some other people’s comments can be helpful. On your second point there, yes, beyond the scope of this post, and definitely a discussion worth having elsewhen.

Tabby @13- That comment on Carrier definitely looked more trollish. Nincompoop is suitably archaic and silly-sounding that it’s probably 99% fine, though niggardly sounds way too bad to modern ears regardless of etymology, and non compos mentis is understood to mean mentally impaired by enough folks it should probably be avoided. I’ve heard it on Law & Order. As to the supposed physically ableist aspect of nincompoop per our probable troll, I’d toss it if more people with those type of problems confirm it bothers them, again, regardless of word origin.

dianne @14- In a sense, yes.

Surly & dianne @16 @17- I’ve had the impression ninny would be used in similar context to and might even be short for nincompoop, have some memory of both being used on Mystery Science Theater 3000 back in the day. Another thing to watch out for tho: association with the nasty racist “pickaninny.”

 
20.  CJ Parker — March 18, 2016 at 3:39 pm

Hi. I noticed that you didn’t approve my comment, so I guess you think I’m a troll???????, I am serious, it is not cool to use the term “thoughtless”. It is making fun of someone by saying that they are sho inferior that they can’t even perform an action that should be involuntary. That is ableist as fuck. There are people in tragic medical circumstances where their brains are incapable of thinking. I can’t imagine you would support someone using “brain-dead” as a perjorative insult against somebody. How is using “thoughtless” any different? A similar situation happened a couple of years ago when the blogger Grimalkin Called outother bloggers for the ableist insults about being too stupid to breathe. teenskepchickdotorg/2014/02/17/what-actually-happened-and-a-rough-timeline/

I still don’t read skepchick after they kicked out Grimalkin. I know that nobody hear means any harm but the mistreatment of comatose people by religious conservatives is a real probKen. They forced Terry Schiavo onto life support against her wished, and there was an even worse case in Texas where they made a comatose woman stay on life support against her wished and serve as an unwilling baby incubator. I don’t think the other commenter had bad intent but that word has very harmful effects.

 
21.  Great American Satan — March 18, 2016 at 3:50 pm

It was something about the phrasing, made me wonder if you agreed with your own point, hard to put a finger on. But this followup is clear enough. I didn’t think about “thoughtless” as similar to “brain dead.” Reasonable comment! Approved.

EDIT from 2026! I wonder again if this was a troll job. As much as good people may advocate for the right of those in persistent vegetative states to not be subject to indignities, this didn't feel like a position a real person was likely to take. The reasoning was progressive so I let it out of moderation, tho I haven't thought of it enough over the years to actually take its advice. Now, reconstructing comments for archive, I notice “probKen.” Was this a reference to famous arch-troll of more innocent internet days, Ken M?

If so, well played. But also ya suck for fucking with people trying new ways to make the world a better place, for all that this micro-movement had no staying power. If you're the original ken, not your best work, and while you escaped moderation, you'll note that nobody bought this enough to meaningfully interact with it. Catch an L.

 
22.  Great American Satan — March 18, 2016 at 4:13 pm
Also, props for Grimalkin.
 
23.  Onamission5 — March 18, 2016 at 8:01 pm

@Dianne #1:

Some suggestions, “I was being...”

Absurd
Inane
Hasty
Heedless
Imprudent
Negligent
Careless
Misguided
Feckless
Oblivious
Rash
Tedious
Clownish
Naïve
Insipid

I think these terms are pretty much free of ableist connotations?

 
24.  chigau (違う) — March 18, 2016 at 8:35 pm

Who here is old enough to remember Archie Bunker?

Would “Meathead” work?

 
25.  left0ver1under — March 20, 2016 at 8:17 pm

I’ll hide this here, rather than sound smug and self-righteous by posting first in the other item, “Taking the Ableism Challenge”....

I try (though sometimes fail) to avoid ableist words, but even moreso, several years ago (5? 6?) I consciously chose to drop all use of profanities online, primarily for two reasons:

1) Emotion – Profanity (sometimes) conveys more emotion in my tone or causes a stronger emotional response in others than the intent in the words. Avoiding them usually (though not always) makes people respond less angrily, and it makes apologies easier given and accepted in both directions, or sometimes not even necessary.

2) Dishonest argument – There are plenty of people (e.g. the hypocritical religious) who spew insults, threats and profanity, yet will then whine, “You’re using foul language! I don’t have to talk to you!” as a cowardly way of avoiding argument. Not using it takes away one dishonest tactic.

In “TtAC” you advocate not using words like “crazy”, and in this thread you agreed with using accurate descriptives. What about a word like sociopathic? As an example, there have been several individuals (now it seems only one anymore) with a history of advocating discrimination against muslims and indiscriminate bombing certain countries. Do a search on the main page for any blog posts including the word “Israel” and they can easily be identified. One of them posted just this week on another’s FtB page.

 
26.  silverfeather — March 20, 2016 at 8:32 pm

diane @1

I am so, so late to the party here, but to answer your sentence “I voted for Trump in Reno, just to watch him lie. I now regret that decision and think I was being...”

I would go with “...selfish and unkind, and I was wrong.”

I would then follow that up with a five part apology to my fellow human beings and possibly a month long drinking binge to try to wipe the memory of voting for TRUMP (ugggghhh) completely out of my brain.

 
27.  Great American Satan — March 20, 2016 at 11:06 pm

Thanks for additional suggestions, people.

leftover @25 – Interesting thoughts on profanity. Fortunately for me, I don’t have one of those issues because I don’t bother debating anything with religious folks. I’m more the preach-to-the-choir type. Then again, on rare occasion it comes up in meatspace, and that sucks.

On the subject of “sociopathic,” I have been known to use it the same way but I consciously avoid doing so in my writing. My estranged sister has Antisocial PD / “sociopathy” and bad history, but I have the feeling with better circumstances she could and maybe can get on OK in society. If there’s someone with issues like hers that could be offended by being lumped in with the advocates of violence, I’d rather not do them wrong.

I don’t know a lot about the subject, but it’s my understanding that it used to be an accepted clinical term, but no longer is. That might make it tempting to use in a vernacular way, but it still kinda sounds like armchair diagnosis, which isn’t good.

When Lux said this...

“I think it’s important to introspect on why terms like ‘crazy’ and ‘delusional’ create such a visceral response in ourselves. It’s because there is a long-standing stigma against neurodivergence, and an all-too-common dehumanization of people who live with those afflictions. These terms create the same effect in our brain as cursing, at least in my experience.”

...it reminded me of how it feels when I call the cruel “sociopaths.” It’s might not be the best thing to say, but it feels satisfying in the mouth, doesn’t it? Suitably angry, at least colloquially correct. But I’m still avoiding it.

 
28.  left0ver1under — March 26, 2016 at 2:57 pm

GAS (#27) –

I’ve seen dishonest argument and tone policing by a number of well known atheists (no names), not just the religious. Anyone is capable of being a hypocrite.

I have used sociopath only to describe those who advocate things like bombing civilians, torture, mass murder, invasions of other countries, assassination, etc. (e.g. Sam Harris, who I will name). There are some commenters on FtB who have said similar things, though not as many as in the past.

 
29.  Great American Satan — March 26, 2016 at 4:37 pm
left0 @28- On the first point, true that. On the second, if that works for you in most places it’s fine. I’d just prefer it not be used here for the reasons indicated. Yeah, there’s a lot of creepy going around these days, even on FtB.

Morality in Fiction 

What’s the moral of the story? It’s a question you probably left behind in high school, sometimes because the morals are obvious (“well I’m all broken up about that man’s rights”), more often because that’s not why you came to the story in question (“there is no spoon”). I didn’t pay it much mind for years, but recently it’s been getting my attention. I’ll just lay out the thoughts in their own paragraphs, whether they reach a conclusion or not...

Read More

Today I first thought of the subject while remembering this Monday’s episode of Supergirl. Spoiler alert if you haven’t seen it yet. In the episode, she’s exposed to red kryptonite, which in the Berlantiverse is the “make u eevil” kryptonite. Naturally, she wears black and acts sassy, causes random destruction, and so on. This wasn’t a very thoughtful script though it was slightly better by the last minutes of the show.

But there was one villainous act by Supergirl that made me think. She lets a villain escape early in the episode. Her reasoning is that he is no challenge and not worth fighting, but that seemed flimsy to me. It was probably the best they could come up with for justifying an action that really didn’t make much sense, was just there to prove she had turned naughty.

supergirl in her evil incarnation
Screen capture of Melissa Benoist as Supergirl, property of CBS... or fucken whoever
 

What I was thinking is that it might be cool to see if red kryptonite Kara has some kind of morality. We all have morality that comes from a combination of society, environment, and our natural inclinations. As social animals, we are all compelled to have relationships with each other, though like everything in nature this varies in degree and expression by millions of complicating factors. Even fictional evil characters usually have some kind of social impulse, even if it’s just world domination. So what is red Kara’s?

What I was thinking is that it might be cool to see if red kryptonite Kara has some kind of morality. We all have morality that comes from a combination of society, environment, and our natural inclinations. As social animals, we are all compelled to have relationships with each other, though like everything in nature this varies in degree and expression by millions of complicating factors. Even fictional evil characters usually have some kind of social impulse, even if it’s just world domination. So what is red Kara’s?

Did she let him go because on some level she sensed that bad guys are her people? Was she thinking she might make a flunky out of him some day, or that she just naturally had more sympathy for destructive alien brutes? It might be fun for the show to revisit the scenario using alternate realities or more red kryptonite and see if that version of the character has something more interesting going on, besides living down to a stereotype.

And now for something completely different: The Walking Dead. I cannot watch these shows anymore (TWD and FtWD), as compelling as the perpetual danger and lovely actors may be. I just started watching them in early spring 2015 and quit fall of the same year. It took an embarrassingly long time to do so, but I figured out what was bothering me about them. Both shows have the exact same moral, playing out the exact same way, over and over and over again.

glenn from the walking dead, gagged and about to be murdered
Screen capture of Steven Yeun as Glenn Rhee in The Walking Dead, property of AMC, or fucken whoever
 

If it was a moral I agreed with, that might not be a problem. But I disagree with it powerfully. It’s the underpinning of so much of what’s wrong with America – trust no one, everyone’s trying to get over, fuck them before they fuck you. Some of you might disagree that’s what they’re communicating, but it really is.

The show, just like America itself, makes exceptions for those close to you, based on closeness. Trust no one (except your family), and so on. On the show it’s the people you know the best – your enclave / faction / posse, whatever – that can be trusted, and everyone else is wrong, dangerous, deluded, or even a cannibal. IRL America, it’s your family first, and everyone else is trying to steal your tax dollars or make your children gay or whatever. And if you must stand in solidarity with someone outside your doors, it’s your race or gender first, everyone else is out to take your jobs, or trick or rob you, or terrorism on you, or try to reverse the situation so that white menz become the most oppressed group evarrrrr.

This plays out in our economy as a situation of total desperation, just a gigantic pile of everyone screwing everyone, the Hobbesian war of all against all. It hurts us emotionally and physically. It’s felt the most by poor people, but can be seen clearly at every level of our society if you know what you’re looking at. It really doesn’t have to be this way; it’s just the same overwhelming fear of the Other that drives the plots of Walking Dead shows along their inexorable crappy path.

Lastly, role-playing games.

cover of old dungeons & dragons book, features an archer, a wizard, and a dragon
Cover of 1st edition Dungeons & Dragons book, once property of TSR, probably Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro now
 

So-called “pen and paper” role-playing games still, after decades of existence, still haven’t achieved the kind of cultural saturation where they can be discussed without a bit of explanation. Short version – it’s playing pretend like small children do, except with rules on paper, and actions described rather than physically performed. It’s something I’ve spent entirely too much time doing. One person (the game master / GM) manages the world and describes all of its inhabitants (non-player characters / NPCs) except for the characters created by the players (player characters / PCs).

Since the dawn of this hobby in the late seventies, it’s been well known that PCs are often horrible, despicable people. A GM can describe a lovely meadow with a peaceful cow in it, and a typical PC’s first instinct is to fight the cow or light the whole thing on fire. You know how some christians say that if there was no god to create morality, everyone would go around raping, murdering, and robbing each other? That’s player character morality in a nutshell.

On a personal level, I’ve never felt this. I can understand it in principle. The world of imagination is largely consequence free. Even if a character is punished for their crimes in game, you don’t feel that as the player. Likewise if your imagination sucks, the fictional victims of your fictional crimes are faceless, just so many words, supremely easy to ignore.

Why would this be someone’s fantasy? Not all gamers are antisocial jerkbags, but a disproportionate number play as such. I can relate to using fantasy as wish fulfillment. For me, that’s having cool powers, being able to fight jerks, etc. For a lot of people, it’s stacking coins and killing anyone who looks at you funny.

There’s a LOT more I could say about people being shitty at RPGs, but it starts to get off topic. The main point here: PCs, NPCs, they are fictional creations, but the morality within their stories shouldn’t be total garbage. That’s my feeling and it’s the same for any other fiction I involve myself with, passively (books, TV, movies) or actively (writing, RPGs). What do you like to see in fiction and how do you play?

-

Comments
 
1.  johnhodges — March 17, 2016 at 5:38 am
In the original D&D manuals, there were some cartoons in the margins. One showing a post-battle scene with the players flattened, battered, embedded in the stone wall, otherwise badly injured or dead, one standing with tattered armor and broken sword, in front of a dead Balrog, saying “See, guys! Balrogs ain’t so tough! WE WON!” One showing an underground corridor with some construction workers in hardhats, with sawhorses, lanterns, traffic cones, and so forth, and a sign “DUNGEON UNDER CONSTRUCTION: KEEP OUT!” One that I think is relevant to discussions of morality: a room with a knight, a wizard, a thief, and a cleric gathered around a table, opening a box labeled PAPERS AND PAYCHECKS, the wizard explaining “It’s a game; we pretend we are all workers and students in an advanced industrial society.” The Walking Dead and the worlds of RPG games are not societies where there is the rule of law, or even ordinary civil peace, where farmers and artisans and merchants ply their trades and try to raise families. Nobody is even trying to defend a territory in which there is “peace, order, and good government.” They are war zones, lawless areas where gangs, mostly small gangs , are trying to hack and slash their way to the nearest treasure. Morality applies only within the gang.
 
2.  Great American Satan — March 17, 2016 at 11:53 am
Yeeeah... Not interested. Also, not all fictional settings are war zones, and not all conflicts necessitate turning into the most disgusting version of what a man is supposed to be. Certainly not fictional conflicts. In fiction, righteousness, willpower, and a little magic can win out against overwhelming odds. IRL, the best tactic against more powerful enemies is terrorism. Not what I’m looking to fiction for.
 
3.  Yellow Thursday — March 17, 2016 at 7:06 am

As a GM in an RPG (Gamma World), I recently had to let a player know that I was not ok with him raping a captured enemy. I figured out a way to do it in-game, but I have not been comfortable having him at the table since.

I was also disappointed when half of my players said they wanted to make evil characters for a different campaign.

 
4.  Great American Satan — March 17, 2016 at 11:55 am
Big time. It’s not like I expect people to play paladin morals. Lately my D&D games are mostly Neutral. But if there’s something I would never forgive a person for IRL, I’d rather my players weren’t having their characters do it in game.
 
5.  dianne — March 17, 2016 at 7:07 am

“A GM can describe a lovely meadow with a peaceful cow in it, and a typical PC’s first instinct is to fight the cow or light the whole thing on fire.”

This is partly because the players know that they’re in an adventure game and the cow is likely to turn out to be an evil attack cow who will eat you instead of vice versa if you give it a chance. Of course, a rabbit would be even worse.

 
6.  Great American Satan — March 17, 2016 at 11:56 am
I probably asked for this with my Monty Python reference...
 
7.  EnlightenmentLiberal — March 17, 2016 at 12:10 pm
I’m taking that usual trope, and putting it on its head, subverting it hard. I’m playing a lawful good, stupid good, character inspired by silver age comic book heroes. I’ve been going out of my out-of-combat in RP and in-combat to avoid killing people, giving enemies a chance to surrender, etc.

To other readers, there is another usual trope that the party is just there for the loot and treasure, and not to help anyone. I’m also subverting that hard. I’ve already spent a shitton of party loot on saving NPCs, and not just any NPCs, but NPCs from the evil organization that just tried to kill us several sessions ago.

Just a few nights ago, in the last session, I almost released an evil demon into the world, because it pretended to be reformed, and I would have trusted it (see stupid good and good cannot comprehend evil). Thankfully, my trusty sidekick Bearsy Bearington stopped me in time from committing that horrible mistake.

Playing this character is a blast!

 
8.  Great American Satan — March 17, 2016 at 2:06 pm
I know it’s the name of the trope, but I’d like people to avoid the use of “stupid” and its synonyms in my comment section. Something to keep in mind for future comments. Glad you’re having fun in your games though.
 
9.  EnlightenmentLiberal — March 17, 2016 at 2:43 pm
Mmhmm. K.
 
10.  Richard Carrier — March 17, 2016 at 1:01 pm

I think about the same questions in confronting fiction all the time.

When it comes to RPG’s, though, I guess I had a better crew back in the day. We had a player or two who would run a character with questionable ethics, although even they had their own ethics (like you ponder for red Kara), and other players ran characters with values, and interesting moral conflict resulted within the game.

I actually never liked D&D. Its play system was awkward and limited, and its scoring system was based on murder and theft. I played far more frequently Palladium, which had its own issues, but at least its scoring system for leveling up was based on good roleplaying and heroic action. Thus motivating both.

Other games had different systems of reward. In Call of Cthulhu, you improved a skill by using it. There was no other form of advancement (other than gradually going insane, which gave you advantageous insights into the bleak alien horrors of reality, until it didn’t anymore). In the original Warhammer Fantasy RPG (which most people have forgotten about), you gained experience points only for achieving scenario goals (so the GM could thus decide what those are) and good roleplaying of your character.

We so much preferred those systems, that we started adapting them to other RPGs, and just running them on the same advancement rules.

Thus proving the adage that it isn’t just the artist who decides the meaning and impact of their art.

 
11.  EnlightenmentLiberal — March 17, 2016 at 1:35 pm

“I actually never liked D&D. Its play system was awkward and limited, and its scoring system was based on murder and theft. I played far more frequently Palladium, which had its own issues, but at least its scoring system for leveling up was based on good roleplaying and heroic action. Thus motivating both.”

Meh. The criteria by which one levels up / gains experience / improves abilities is easily changed by DM fiat and group agreement. That rule is a very small part of the system, and it’s loosely coupled, and thus easily replaced. Thus, I never really understood that complaint of D&D from actual gamers.

 
12.  Great American Satan — March 17, 2016 at 2:20 pm

Oh snap, Mr. C. You got no-true-gamer’d! EL, that may be a bit more punchy than it needs to be.

I admit, most of the time my players haven’t been that horrible either, but it would’ve bloated my word count and diluted the point to get more specific. When they do go astray, it’s pretty much as described.

I was a Palladium die-hard for a long time, though dallying with other games. West End Games’ old Star Wars RPG was the first game to break me out of that completely – showed me a system could be more simple and still fun. I still have all my Palladium books though. I don’t know that it shows, but they influenced me a lot as an artist. I especially loved Larry MacDougall’s art in “Further Adventures in The Northern Wilderness.”

Like EL, I ignore or house rule parts of a system that don’t work for me. I’ve been doing D&D (Pathfinder) lately for the cultural history of it, the prior familiarity of players. That’s after spending most of my RP for years in forum-based free-form play, and the bookkeeping is pretty damned annoying, I have to admit.

I could say more on topic about morality, but maybe I’ll save it for future posts. I have too many stories.

 
13.  EnlightenmentLiberal — March 17, 2016 at 2:55 pm

“EL, that may be a bit more punchy than it needs to be.”

K... Maybe I’ll just refrain from posting here, considering that I don’t understand how I might have been out of line...

 
14.  Great American Satan — March 17, 2016 at 8:28 pm

“Actual gamers” sounded a bit like a personal swipe, like Mr. C isn’t a real gamer. Which is less of a big deal since he’s a fellow white guy & it’s not like you can gatekeep him out of pretty much anything, but depending on the person, could be fightin’ words. I’d rather not see fights here.

I’ll post a comment policy some time tonight. If you feel like skipping on my blog, no problem. It doesn’t bother me if it doesn’t bother you.

 
15.  Richard Carrier — March 17, 2016 at 2:26 pm

Oh, indeed!

Hence my last line said just that.

The only reason we didn’t retool D&D that way for ourselves was that it had too many other flaws to bother fixing that way. We just used other systems we liked better. And retooled them (if necessary).

 
16.  EnlightenmentLiberal — March 17, 2016 at 2:41 pm
Indeed. I have fond memories of D&D 3.5, but I can see the plethora of flaws. In my spare time, I’m doing what all hardcore RPGers seem to do: Make my own system from scratch.
 
17.  Richard Carrier — March 17, 2016 at 2:54 pm

Yeah. Systems from scratch! That does tend to happen to the old dogs of RPG yore. 🙂

I do that a lot, too. I’ve also adapted the obscure but elegantly simple Over the Edge rules to just about any universe. I prefer it by far to GURPS which everyone seems to love for some reason. Although I’ve envied the card play that operates Torg and Deadlands (both in very different ways). I’ve toyed with improvised variants but none I’ve tested much.

I think we all do stuff like that.

Although some systems have a unique and unreplicable aesthetic feel I just have to play nostalgically from time to time, and not tinker with overmuch. Call of Cthulhu and the old Warhammer system, for example.

But we have gotten way off subject by now.

I’ll get us back on track by quoting something I once wrote tangentially related to this post:

“[W]hat a scene looks to be saying is not necessarily what it is saying. Art is complex, even when it’s not trying to be. I remember someone I knew back in middle school who idolized a character in the film Apocalypse Now: Lt. Colonel Kilgore (played by Robert Duvall, who utters the famous line, 'I love the smell of napalm in the morning'). He modeled himself after him, dressed like him, talked like him, spoke of him reverently as a kick-ass soldier, his ideal hero. The disturbing thing about that (for those who haven’t seen the movie) is that Kilgore is a grotesque character, he is meant to horrify the viewer. He was specifically written as a metaphor for exactly the kind of stiff-backed war-idolizing lunatic who causes and perpetuates unjust wars like that in Vietnam, men who are never touched by any sense of danger or loss, who puff their chest with exaggerated superiority, who utter such absurd racist patriotisms as 'Charlie don’t surf!' This kid didn’t get the joke. He was inspired by that movie to become the very thing it was criticizing.”

Which, as I go on to note, is no fault of the artist.

This is why I think we should teach people in high school the skills needed to understand art better. Precisely so they can get, or think about, the moral of a story–whether the moral was intended by the artist or not, but especially when it is. Critical Thinking in Art should be as crucial as Statistics for Citizens. But our school systems generally teach neither.

 
18.  Great American Satan — March 17, 2016 at 8:32 pm
Well said and accurate, just the same note I gave EL earlier: Regarding “war-idolizing lunatic,” I’d like to see if we can avoid synonyms for “stupid” and “crazy” on this blog. As for the system stuff, hahaha, we’re in some nerd soup.
 
19.  silverfeather — March 17, 2016 at 10:52 pm

As a female gamer who has sat at many tables I can say with certainty – the GMs are often just as bad as the PCs. Funny how in a fantasy world that could be anything I always seemed to find myself in a male dominated society populated with buxom bar wenches, damsels in distress, and of course the many powerful men who would actually get things done and change the world. White men, of course.

In one game many years ago, the GM was so put off by the fact that I wanted to play a female Fighter and not some type of Cleric or Mage that he gave my character a brutal rape back story to explain (I assume to himself) why a woman would be so motivated to pick up a sword. Ugh. I never went back to that table.

It took me years to surround myself with amazing, thoughtful, empathetic gamers – but it has been completely worth the work. They are better storytellers, they craft more interesting worlds, and they create multi-layered characters. D&D night finally feels like being an influential part of an engaging story and not like being the T&A sidekick in the Transformers movie. (Apologies to anyone who actually liked Transformers, hehe)

 
20.  surlymisanthrope — March 17, 2016 at 11:36 pm

Looking back through the lens of social justice is still new practice for me. I have no doubt there was a lot of oppressive heteronormativity and casual misogyny in my gaming groups, but for the most part the people we gamed with at least tended towards creating characters motivated to “do good” rather than the other. We tended to engage in adventures with heroic goals rather than selfish ones.

As for shows and films in the Zombie genre, I gave up on Walking Dead after maybe 2 seasons and a premiere. I remember scoffing at my aunt when she stopped watching criminal procedurals on network television because the crimes were just getting too awful, but now I’m heading in that direction myself. Along with tWD, I also gave up on Sons of Anarchy for the same reason. I get enough exposure to the sickest side of humanity when I accidentally read the top comment on a YouTube video or a political news item on Facebook; I don’t need to immerse myself in it recreationally.

 
21.  dianne — March 18, 2016 at 3:20 am
I’ve never actually played D&D. Too mainstream. I prefer geekier games. (Of course, this attitude is why I was one of the early play testers on what ended up being a GURPS game, make of that what you will.)
 
22.  Great American Satan — March 18, 2016 at 4:19 am

silver – I’ve definitely heard this before. Personally I seldom had a lady-identified individuals in my circle of friends until after I got hip about sexism, so it didn’t come up, but still... Probably because we were pretty off-putting from the start. I can’t know.

surly – Nice, and agreed. I never did watch Sons of Anarchy, good to know I can safely skip it.

 
23.  EnlightenmentLiberal — March 18, 2016 at 11:16 am

Thanks for your explanation.

In response, I note that I said “Thus, I never really understood that complaint of D&D from actual gamers.” Taken at face value, I said that I do not understand this complaint when coming from actual, real, actual gamers. Taken at face value, I am stating that I do not understand the complaint. Further, I am stating that I do not understand the complaint when coming from an actual gamer. Thus, in context, the face value meaning is that Carrier is an actual gamer, and I do not understand the complaint when it comes from an actual gamer like Carrier. In particular, I did not use the phrasing “no actual gamer would say that”. Instead, I said “I don’t understand why an actual gamer would say that”. You have to go way beyond the obvious face-value meaning in order to arrive at this insult that you see. You have to assume that I was being passive-aggressive or something. You have to apply zero principle of charity.

Further, it seems that you were triggered by my use of a word, and immediately went to it being a negative, whereas I was using it as a positive to accurately describe Carrier.

I feel that I am being afforded zero principle of charity, and you’re on a tear on your new blog to look for any possible thing that causes undue offense, and to stamp it out. While it is very important to police one’s own words to ensure that no accidental offense is caused, this particular nit rises above and beyond what I consider reasonable or practical.

Similarly, it is also important for a blog owner to police their blog.

And of course, a blog owner is entirely free to run their blog in their own way.

However, in your seeming zealous attempt to make sure everyone feels welcome, you are making me like I have to walk on egg-shells to an extent that I find unpalatable, and that makes me feel unwelcome. In addition, the extreme lack of principle of charity displayed also makes me feel unwelcome. In addition, I feel very uncomfortable if I am expected to obey this level of preemptive screening in order to ensure that I don’t trigger anyone, or accidentally insult anyone with a “hidden” meaning of what I state, etc.

In full sincerity, until you explained yourself, I had no idea what you were talking about. I also fully expect that Carrier did not take away the meaning that you gave, and I also fully expect that almost all readers would not take away the meaning that you gave.

And finally, one of the most important reasons why I participate in online discussions is in order challenge myself, my own ideas, and to challenge the ideas of others. Am I right that you do not want heated discussions and arguments here? Is that what you mean by fighting? Then it seems that this particular blog is not the place for me. It seems that I will have to take you up on your generous offer to not post here.

I wish you and your blog the best.

Good day.

 
24.  EnlightenmentLiberal — March 18, 2016 at 11:28 am

Oh, I see another possibility. Is it that you mean to communicate that any and all use of the term “actual gamer” is automatically a kind of micro-aggression by appealing to a particular cultural standard by which people are often made to feel excluded, especially women? Fascinating. I didn’t think of that possibility.

A person with only a cursory knowledge of D&D might wrongly believe that killing monsters to gain experience points and loot is an inherent and intrinsic property of D&D 3.5. Thus, I can understand why someone unfamiliar with D&D might say that, and why I would not understand why someone familiar with D&D might say that.

I was using the term “actual gamer” to describe that difference. I was using the term “actual gamer” to describe someone who has played the game and is familiar with the game. I suppose I could use other terms to describe the same thing, but I think that it is impossible for me to express myself on this point without using terms that can be used in a wrongly-exclusionary way. In order to express my reasonable point, I do need to make a distinction between people who actually have played the game, and people who haven’t. I am not going to stop using real concepts – people familiar with the game vs people not familiar with the game – in the process of expressing myself in a reasonable fashion, on the off fear that someone might apply zero principle of charity and assume I’m being sarcastic, passive aggressive, or on the off fear that I might trigger someone by referring to concepts which in other contexts are used in a wrongly-exclusionary way. IMHO, it’s like objecting to using the term “black people” because in other contexts, other people use the term “black people” in an exclusionary way.

Regardless, it’s been fun though. Fascinating conversation, even if it’s a conversation with only me.

 
25.  Great American Satan — March 18, 2016 at 1:18 pm

El-

“Am I right that you do not want heated discussions and arguments here? Is that what you mean by fighting? Then it seems that this particular blog is not the place for me.”

Heated discussions and arguments maybe sometimes, though it’s not my preference. It’s not exactly what I mean by fighting. I’m thinking of when people make it personal, ad hominems and the like. In some comment sections, everyone is hashing things out with boisterous debate. In others, they’re expressing solidarity and relating their personal experiences with the topic at hand, or offering polite correction to the OP or other commenter’s mistakes.

I definitely prefer the latter experience, you seem to prefer the former. Especially with a view to my comment policy, I can understand why you’d feel like you’re walking on eggshells and not want to hang around here. Regarding the rest of your comments, I haven’t seen anything too disagreeable. I don’t have a problem with your feeling and am not expressing recrimination in suggesting you may be more comfortable elsewhere. Or if you feel like it’s worth the eggshell walk to comment only rarely, that’s fine too.

 
26.  EnlightenmentLiberal — March 18, 2016 at 1:22 pm

(Flat comments, yay!)

One last thing: I was wrong. I was talking it over with a friend, and they explained it to me. In particular, I was surprised at their immediate conflation of “I do not understand X” with the meaning “I believe that X is false”. From that, the meaning to the audience then becomes “I believe that no actual gamer would say that”. I should have said “I accept that you have played the game extensively, and I do not understand why anyone who has played the game extensively would say that”. But even then, my friend cautioned me that I still might be interpreted in a passive-aggressive manner, again where the audience has the understanded meaning that I am claiming that Carrier does not have extensive experience playing the game.

I am socially incompetent, and I apologize for everything that I have done in this thread. I still genuinely am puzzled at how I could express this in a way that is not prone to these particular problems. I will work on it.

I am still miffed that “I do not understand” has fallen prey to the politeness euphemism treadmill and gained the meaning “I believe that it is false”, just like “I do not believe” is often used as a euphemism to mean “I believe that it is false”.

/sigh

 
27.  Great American Satan — March 18, 2016 at 2:01 pm
You don’t need to apologize that hard, we’re cool.

No Problem Tuesdays, 15th March 2016 

Image of a cartoon devil winking out a star and making the OK sign, with text "no problem tuesdays."
This image is an homage to chickensnack comix's famous dog, redrawn by me to fit the theme.
 

In honor of an esteemed tumblr meme, I would like to keep Tuesdays positive. I can't think of anything to write this week, so I'll just post a cute and funny thing I saw on that site recently. Still getting used to the interface here, so hopefully much more to look at or read next Tuesday.

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tweet by trashwtch of two pretty dogs with a funny caption

Tweet from "trashwtch" (twitter deleted) of two long-haired slender white dogs lounging together on grass, text: "what kind of dogs are these, they make me nervous like if I talk to them they'll speak back but only in riddles"

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Comments
 
1.  Brony, Social Justice Cenobite — March 16, 2016 at 7:36 am

I believe those are Borzois, also known as Russian Wolfhounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borzoi

I’ve always found their appearance somewhat enchanting myself.

 
2.  nahuati — March 16, 2016 at 7:42 am

Cute dogs!

Wishing everyone “No Problem Tuesdays!” 🙂

 
3.  Great American Satan — March 16, 2016 at 10:55 am

Brony – That was my thought as well, though I saw someone elsewhere suggest saluqi, and that seems possible. Borzois always get a big reaction on the internet. Magic dogs.

nahuati – I’ll do my best! Next week yo...

‘Net H8rs R a Bunch of Arch Hall Jr. Characters 

This is a reblog from previous versions of G-A-S

There’s this old Arch Hall Jr. movie called “The Sadist,” which doesn’t feature a sympathetic portrayal of one who engages in a risky kink ethically. Rather, it’s about a criminal in floods who enjoys psychologically tormenting his victims.
 

The character has a catch phrase which I think befits the underlying psychology of the internet’s sundry hate mobs perfectly: “You think you’re better than me?” Then he’ll stalk menacingly at you, looking like he’s carrying a massive deuce in his drawers. No offense to AHj, this character was supposed to be creepy and job well done.

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There’s clearly a sense of aggrievement on their part. They feel upset at being scorned. Our side is motivated by compassion for the victims of abuse and the desire to make the world a better place. The less self-aware on their side might feel like they’re into these goals as well, but find that overwhelmed by the outrage that someone might be looking down on them. You especially see this in the response to things like Schrodinger’s Rapist. No matter how kindly or carefully parsed, any idea that could be perceived – correctly or not – as a criticism of them (or the kind of person they imagine themselves to be) raises this knee-jerk response. You think you’re better than meee?

So then they start doing the poopy pants walk while waving guns around (metaphorically and literally) and make things so much worse. To borrow a much more sensible catch phrase, guys, don’t do that. Seriously, even if you fundamentally disagree with social justice advocates on every issue, just agree to disagree and strut. If you honestly believe your position to be the right one, you have a million motherfuckers to agree with you and coddle your shared privilege. You wouldn’t feel the need to freak out about the fact someone else has a different belief unless – on some level – you think they might be right, and that their rightness would make you feel bad.

You don’t have to feel bad about yourself to accept the truths SJWs be spittin’ – at least, not much. Because no one has to be perfect, we can all learn from our mistakes, all try to be better people. And honestly trying is good enough. Doing something racist/sexist/transphobic/etc doesn’t make you a bigot, outside of that moment. Being unrepentant, being so chickenshit of the possibility of your own imperfection that you double down and make it worse – even make it a part of your raison d’être – this is deciding to wallow in bigotry.

Come off yourself, calm down, drop the fucking keyboard, take a day off. Even if your beliefs don’t change, at least recusing yourself from participating in a hate movement is a step in the right direction. Be cool. Get steppin’.

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Comments
 
1.  Brony, Social Justice Cenobite — March 15, 2016 at 11:36 am

I see these people all over the internet. You can’t challenge something associated with them without them pretending that you are challenging them as a whole person, or challenging an entire group that they are a part of. It’s like part of their psychology is stuck in the strongest parts of Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
It’s unfortunate because it suggests that there are swaths of culture that simply don’t teach personal skills associated with being wrong. I think of them as engaging in flaw-building exercises as they just heap defense mechanisms onto that problem. So they have to mentally twist reality into all kinds of shapes in order to avoid what other people are expressing and then things like #yesallwomen become #notallmen. They end up with lots of problems that create generalized errors in categorizing things.

Being able to introspectively identify one’s excesses and shortcomings and functionally deal with them is enormously important and has associated skills that are more than worth the effort and pain of accepting that we have things that need fixing.

 
2.  Great American Satan — March 15, 2016 at 12:39 pm
Sounds right to me. Good comment, ye cinematic demond.

Great Galloping Satans! 

Hello FtB, I'm Great American Satan. Two or three of you might recognize me from my time at atheismplus dotcom (dead). I also have a tumblr, which is mostly reblogs of short insightful posts from random people and longer articles / excerpts from various people more thoughtful than myself. Occasionally I make art.

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My handle represents a bit of punchy immaturity on my part. As I've said elsewhere, if you ain't living your life in a way that would piss off an ayatollah, you ain't living right. That said, I stand against islam only as much as I personally reject all abrahamic faiths. Islamophobia is for cowards. I also refuse to capitalize religions, as you may have noticed.

What you will ultimately see here: At least one post a week of some kind. Most will be writing, some will be art, and some will be shameless self-promotion of merchandise I'm currently developing with social justice themes. If I ever start to make more money than poverty level + medical needs of family, I will start donating a good part of proceeds to charities that benefit various oppressed groups. It's hard to know what the future will bring, but this doesn't seem too likely as of yet.

My greatest struggle in advocating the movement is anger. It hurts my ability to write persuasively, sometimes just hurts my mind. Once you're clued in to the kinds of oppression that affect those you care about, the world is full of landmines. Because I can't always write anything of use to the cause, I will use my art skills and provide other services.

See you around!

 

Note on moderation: At A+, I used to change the words of slymers and regressives into funny harmless things. That was too much work - more than they deserve. So here, I'm just going to set any offensive or sealioning crap to go straight to a garbage bin that I'm not even going to look at. You're welcome. <3

EDIT - They're heeee-eeere. I just added my first crap human to my spam filter. Congrats, you know who you are.

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Comments
 
1.  Tabby Lavalamp — March 14, 2016 at 7:18 pm
Hello and welcome!
 
2.  Great American Satan — March 14, 2016 at 7:20 pm
Hello back, Tabby! 🙂 Nice twitter you got there.
 
3.  Tabby Lavalamp — March 14, 2016 at 8:24 pm
Thank you. 🙂
 
4.  nahuati — March 14, 2016 at 1:19 pm

Hello, Great American Satan!

What wonderful art work you create! I’m very glad to see you at FtB.

 
5.  Great American Satan — March 14, 2016 at 1:21 pm
Thanks a lot, nahuati. I don’t know much about what’s going on yet. Are you also a new blogger, or just saying howdy?
 
6.  Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk- — March 14, 2016 at 2:12 pm
Good to see you here and lookin’ forward to your posts!
 
7.  Great American Satan — March 14, 2016 at 2:24 pm
Tremendous! It’s nice that almost everyone good and evil that has shown up so far is a familiar face. Preemptive blacklisting for (now up to 2) jerks, and a warm hello for you. 🙂
 
8.  Siobhan — March 15, 2016 at 6:24 am
Welcome to FtB, friend! I appreciate that you’ll be sharing your artistic pursuits as a form of self care. Awareness and debilitating anger are two sides of the same coin. 🙁
 
9.  Great American Satan — March 15, 2016 at 9:46 am
Thanks for commenting Siobhan. So far, this is going well.
 
10.  nahuati — March 15, 2016 at 7:47 am
Great American Satan, I just stopped by to say howdy. I’ve been checking out the new blog rooms. There was a rumor that there was going to be a party in your room some time, so I brought lots of popcorn to share. 🙂
 
11.  Great American Satan — March 15, 2016 at 9:41 am
No parties in here, the place is a mess. But thanks for thinking of me.
 
12.  Brony, Social Justice Cenobite — March 15, 2016 at 11:27 am

Welcome to Freethought Blogs Great American Satan!

I understand about the anger, as a person with Tourette’s Syndrome I’ve had to deal with intense rage my whole life. I’ve gotten pretty good about handling it to the point that it does not get in the way of being rational, logical or able to see what the person I am angry at is saying. Perhaps I may have some insights if you post on that topic. A key to it for me is making sure that I focus it on specific things (like beliefs, thoughts, actions and communications), and keep it away from specific things (like whole persons and groups of people, though you can hate the defining characteristics of groups when relevant like the xenophobic bigotry in the KKK).

 
13.  Great American Satan — March 15, 2016 at 12:47 pm
That’s good advice, Brony. I feel like you meant “general things” in the second part. Would you like me to edit that for you? I’m not too busy at the moment.
 
14.  Brony, Social Justice Cenobite — March 15, 2016 at 1:00 pm

No, I meant “specific things”. The object that I had in mind was whole persons and whole groups as specific things. But I think I get your concern, the generalization of the hate being attached to a whole group via one’s experiences of individual whole persons. In my experience it’s important to actively create specific conceptual categories that are generalities, which sounds paradoxical until you consider that there are more than two levels to conceptual hierarchies and that they feed into one another in different ways.

[group of people]/[whole individual person]/[characteristics of individual person]
[group of people]/[characteristics of group]/[characteristics that define group membership]

Did that answer your concerns?

 
15.  Great American Satan — March 16, 2016 at 10:56 am
Think I get it now, it was more confusion about the construction of the language than the intent or ideas. No prob.
 
16.  Tony! The Queer Shoop — March 15, 2016 at 5:27 pm
Great American Satan:
Welcome to FtB!
 
17.  Great American Satan — March 15, 2016 at 5:50 pm
Hola, the famous Tony!
 
18.  Uncle Ebeneezer — March 16, 2016 at 10:46 am
Welcome! Great to see you get a spot here. Been a semi-regular follower (only “semi” due to my own laziness) for a while.
 
19.  Great American Satan — March 16, 2016 at 10:50 am
Hello. I know I’ve seen you around too. And laziness is underrated. 🙂